Friday, 14 September 2012
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use a little bit of logic, folks
With election season ramping up, we see a lot of political discussion all over the place. Debates about policies, beliefs, the economy, etc.
One thing that shocks me is the amount of discussion we see about platforms. I'm not talking about dems critiquing the republican platform or vice versa. What I'm talking about is those who are going around telling folks that "you're not conservative because..." or "your not a liberal because..." The oddest part is, it's not other folks of the same ideology telling them this, either. It's libs telling conservatives that they're not conservative, or conservatives telling folks their not libertarian.
Really?
Who are we to tell each other what we are? Especially when you people don't ever seem to get it right.
Those who seem to go around finger pointing, and saying these things, are usually way off base what the other side is about. Liberals calling conservatives "poor haters" and conservatives calling liberals "queer, baby killers." Or just completely being way off target as to what the subject's leaning actually are.
I've seen a lot of folks talking about libertarians lately. It seems the basic gist is that libertarians want some sort of Mad Max world, complete and total anarchy.
Not quite. Hell, not even close. Libertarians aren't anarchists. Anarchists are to the extreme right of the political spectrum. Libertarians do not fall there. They don't fall anywhere on the traditional left/right spectrum at all. And that's where the problem lays.
There is so much more to the political spectrum than left/right. There's also up/down. Up being libertarian, which is a bit of a mix between traditional liberal/conservative tenets, and down being statist, another type of mix.
Trying to dumb it down to a central idea is idiotic, at best. How would those of you on the left feel if I just said that liberalism is about gov't controlling our lives and tossing away traditional morals and ethics? After all, it's the left that gave us Obamacare, gay marriage, and abortion. How would those of you on the right feel if I said that conservatism is about gov't controlling our lives and tossing away traditional morals and ethics? After all, it's the right that wants to ban gay marriage, keep drugs illegal, and wages war without officially declaring it.
See what happens when one tries to fit an ideology into a single sentence?
The problem here is, I don't think these folks are just that confused about libertarianism, though. I really think they see it as a threat, so they misrepresent it, just as they do the traditional left/right opposition. Sorry, but it can't be more clear when both sides (who usually can NEVER get along or agree) suddenly use the same arguments to attempt to discredit libertarians.
Don't try to say "hey, they both agree, they must be on to something!" It just doesn't work that way. Especially when they go after any opposition by simply mischaracterizing it.
They claim it's confusing. How? Because they don't all blindly follow one another? That's less confusing than the left/right arguments that go on. The left is pro-choice and pro-welfare, even though the arguments for each contradict each other. "A woman's right to choose." "Don't be selfish." Well, which is it?
It's only confusing, because you choose for it to be confusing.
For those that are genuinely interested, don't go to a liberal or conservative to find out what being a libertarian is about, just as you wouldn't go to a conservative to find out what liberalism is about. And don't dismiss folks when they try to explain it to you, as well. Just shows that you're actually a close-minded jackass that can't think for yourselves.
Just takes a little bit of logic, folks.
You may not like it... but it's just the Grim Truth!
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Comments (32)
:)
Solid.
It's why there's a test/survey out there that measures your stances on a x-y graph and places you somewhere in each quadrant. Depending where you are in a particular quadrant is what, according to your results, you stand.
Wish I could remember the link.
@cmdr_keen - This one? http://www.nolanchart.com/survey.php
While it's a good start, I wouldn't call it concrete, though. Some of the questions, none of the answers really fit my views. It just irks me when one side purposefully misrepresents the other side.
@grim_truth - Not quite; the one I'm thinking of has an x-plane and a y-plane and then has a number of famous world leaders and places them on the chart as a point of comparison - your Hitlers and Stalins, Thatchers and Reagans, Gandhi, etc.
I agree that there's gross misrepresentation on each side, and that answering questions - especially yes/no questions - is a poor substitute to help explain who you are. Sometimes we just can't be labelled - at least, not easily.
@cmdr_keen - Ah, I remember that one. I tink that one was a little more detailed as well. The funny thing with the one I posted, most folks fall under "libertarian" which is odd, because it seems libertarians are the most misunderstood and misrepresented it seems.
Libertarians are all crazy nut-jobs and their world view would never work.
...Right? ;)@WaitingToShrug - You're not a Libertarian, obviously, because Libertarians take these issues more seriously, and would never joke about something.
Much of my reasons for remaining out of the political discussions (*unless I encounter such stupidity that I simply can't keep myself from trying to slap it out of someone) are found in the basics of this post.
I know what I believe, I know how I think, and I know what I want to see accomplished. So I vote accordingly (or refrain from voting, should I see fit) and I leave it at that. What I've found is the overwhelming majority of discussions on Xanga on political topics is nothing more than a fruitless endeavour.
That, and I'd rather spend my time trying to convince xanga hotties to email me pics of their boobies.One day I will succeed!!!
@WaitingToShrug - @IntoTheWind1 - that's right. libertarians have zero sense of humor. Didn't you know if you try to joke with one, they shoot you?
@IntoTheWind1 - I'm *pretty* sure that Libertarians are the only political group who have a sense of humor. ;)
@grim_truth - That wasn't funny. *draws weapon*
@WaitingToShrug - Well that's ridiculous, and I can prove it. Just the other day, Obama said things were getting better.
If that junk ain't funny, I don't know what is.@grim_truth - Whoops, I didn't read the updated manifesto. I'll wipe that grin off my face right away!
@grim_truth - with our unregulated gun supply LOL
@IntoTheWind1 - heheh yeah better, by pumping the market full of printed money with unending QE, they are calling it "QE-4ever" now. Holy crap the inflation we'll get from this one is gonna knock our socks off! I'm gonna ride silver on the way up and then sell, then short the market when they are forced to jack up interest rates.
"Join us so that will show to folks that we are powerful/logical/independent/whatever."
Looks like I am even more confused and just want to walk away. Anyway@grim_truth - nice try, try another attempt at defining your platform
There are different kinds of Libertarians, and they more often tend to be aligned with right than with up in my experience. As such, I do not trust libertarians on other issues when it comes to rights of government.
*claps*
. As usual, well said! 
There was a cracked article I read about a year ago or so... Wish I could find it...
Where it said the basic tenets of most peoples belief system is an attempt to be humanitarian.
That most people (liberal AND conservative) wanted to help poor people and less fortunate people. They just had different views on how to accomplish this.
If we stopped assuming the worst about our ideological "opponents", then we'd stop strawmanning each other or characterizing each other as either dirty commies or greedy racists and we could actually discuss the fucking issues.
~*Wow*~... I honestly don't give myself a label... I can never blindly follow one group or another, I prefer to pick and choose and create my own when it comes to politics... I guess I am like those I make fun of? StarBucks, ordering a perfect blend as if the world is watching, or even cares, but chai, mocha, latte, whatevers... ~*Giggles*~
There was a quiz I took awhile ago... the political compass or something along those lines. Though no quiz is perfect, I felt it laid things out better than most. It helped me define why I'm an Independent. I'm a moderate, very close to the center, but I lean somewhat to the right and down to the libertarian viewpoint. And I agree with that assessment. I can't side with any one party and I like it that way.
@cmdr_keen - It's called "The Political Compass", and is a lot better than most of these "what party are you" quizzes. I just took the test again, and remain firmly with Gandhi as a leftish libertarian, just slightly more to the right than him.
The questions are thought-provoking and require a "agree", "strongly agree", "disagree" or "strongly disagree" answer.
I enjoyed this blog. It points out very nicely that all parties are made up of individuals, with as many ideals, beliefs and ways of thinking as the numbers of those individuals. And therefore, a party can never be summed up in a "nutshell" - it just isn't possible.
Good post.
However, I have to agree with TJ and Libertarians tend to align with the right for the most part. You have to admit you spend a majority of your time arguing with people who think like me vs the Soccerdadforlife or Randomneuraldipshits around here.
With that being said..I would prefer it if our poltical system would break into 20 different parties seen in other nations where alliances are formed and dissolved vs the one or the other we have now. This would allow for much greater representation of differing views. From my perspective...the right is so friggin nuts and crazy the only choice is the Dems. This gives the Dems way too much leeway to do as they please because they know there is no way I could support the Repubs so they aren't held accountable.
I like some libertarian views. Drug legalization, assisted suicide among other things. As things stand now..I cannot leverage with them on these issue because they will mostly vote Repub thus by default we will be in complete opposition.
Oh my, some shocking....um...I think we are in deep doo doo.
I think I would lean conservative libertarian who wants to follow Jesus the best I can. I will say this, for me to vote for most Democrats, would be against my core beliefs.
"Trying to dumb it down to a central idea is idiotic, at best."
Here lies the rub. They HAVE to dumb it down because the average person simply can't understand anything more complex. Kind of like when I was in the military and the Army began putting out PM magazines in a comic book format, written at a 6th grade level, simply because that's the highest level the average soldier could read at and the comic would hold their attention. Today I seriously don't think the average person even understands at a 6th grade level. We don't vote based on actual understanding of the issues, but on whoever comes up with the best slogan.